My Lowly Opinion

[SmokeyTheBear]

SW has not sold out, sure they have more sponsors, but they are just that, SW has an actual relationship with the company's who sponsor it. Look at SN, the blog is littered with Google advertisements for company's like Autozone or Allstate. When SN wanted more money they went to Google AdSense and slapped a bunch of adds on the site. SW took the time to grow and attract companies that not only were willing to sponsor the site but also produce quality products that align with the "stance" rational.

As for the Bagged Lambo on Retro HRE wheels, I grinned like a fucking idiot for like 30 minutes as a drooled over the car. The ridiculousness of the car was exactly what i would expect from SW. An undriveable 600 hp car? fuck yes. I'm sure Lambo purists everywhere were like WTF???

[FluidMotorUnion]

Choosing to take your car one step above is passion.
Spending a weekend surrounded by PB Blaster and MIG splashback is passion.
Having an opinion so strong that you're willing to stand up and voice it is passion.
Getting into arguments and defending your personal aesthetic is passion.
Giving others support keeps the passion alive.

This place was founded on the the notion that passion is what drives us to do better things and create new pathways in life. It doesn't matter what your reasons are, or why, but if you're here, you're passionate about the same things the rest of us are. That passion may take different forms from one person to the next, but it's in all of us.

It doesn't matter if HRE makes wheels we'll never be able to afford, they have serious passion for creating some of the most well-made wheels on the planet, and it shows in the quality of craftsmanship. If that doesn't make them fit in here, I don't know what does.

The point I'm trying to make is this: What brought us here in the first place is very much alive. It may have changed shape, but it's still the same underlying idea, and will continue to be. Passion is what drives us. While the means may change, the end remains the same.

[Jedidiah]

SW has not sold out, sure they have more sponsors, but they are just that, SW has an actual relationship with the company's who sponsor it.

I really appreciate this response because it has taken almost 3 years to develop these relationships. We have been very particular about the companies SW associates with, and have turned down more opportunities then I care to admit for the sake of the community. We pride ourselves on working with some of the best in the industry and helping these companies develop products for everyone within SW.

These relationships take a lot of time to to build and to manage as well. While Andrew, Mike and I might not be on the forums as much as we would like, I can more then assure you that the best interest of the community is paramount over other aspects of decision making. Looks can be deceiving, and while it might seem like we are raking in cash, the reality is that we struggle to figure out how to pay bills each month just like a lot of you do I'm sure. In the end though, I wouldn't change it for a minute because it's been a privilege watching and helping this community grow.

We are going to continue to evolve and strive to be the most original and best in everything we do, refusing to settle for the status-quo. Hopefully everyone that truly cares about SW's well-being will see that.

Ben

[ratmog]

After having read through this and witnessed people making sense on the internet, I have two responses;



and;

I joined S|W for the community and the fact that nobody really gave a shit that my car wasn't what they wanted - and even though my build has been on hold since the 1800s I've had nothing but good feedback and ideas from the members here. (RT you don't count you heartless souls ; I really enjoy the blog and browsing the many many posts that are up on the forums every day. I enjoy the quick responses and discussions and how not every thread is an argument VW vs BMW or Hondabois JDMMING it up, yo. Every member does what he or she wants to do, and has fun with it. I like that.

Sure the blog has deviated a bit and delved occasionally into a lifestyle only some of us dare dream of, but does that really matter? S|W is successful and is run by people with excellent networking - that is going to happen. Brush it off, get on with it and continue making the forum the best it can be.

Having run a website or two in the past I can only imagine what it takes to keep this place going. Makes my head hurt thinking of it!

[skrapez]

After having read through this and witnessed people making sense on the internet, I have two responses;

http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk129/slayercat27/KittenThread.jpg

and;

I joined S|W for the community and the fact that nobody really gave a shit that my car wasn't what they wanted - and even though my build has been on hold since the 1800s I've had nothing but good feedback and ideas from the members here. (RT you don't count you heartless souls ; I really enjoy the blog and browsing the many many posts that are up on the forums every day. I enjoy the quick responses and discussions and how not every thread is an argument VW vs BMW or Hondabois JDMMING it up, yo. Every member does what he or she wants to do, and has fun with it. I like that.

Sure the blog has deviated a bit and delved occasionally into a lifestyle only some of us dare dream of, but does that really matter? S|W is successful and is run by people with excellent networking - that is going to happen. Brush it off, get on with it and continue making the forum the best it can be.

Having run a website or two in the past I can only imagine what it takes to keep this place going. Makes my head hurt thinking of it!

That. Was. Beautiful. (tear... sniffle...) <3 Seriously tho, well said I agree completely.

[stinkinrich]

I could sit here and write my thoughts for hours, but I don't need to.
Its just real good to be part of a community that shares the same aspirations with fellow car enthusiasts.

I haven't been here from the start, but there's no doubt that from the vibe we all get from the founder(s), whoever you may be and who I would love to meet some time, your vision hasn't altered in the slightest.

Im in the stance malarkey for the long haul.

[ratmog]

That. Was. Beautiful. (tear... sniffle...) <3 Seriously tho, well said I agree completely.

Told you they were heartless souls!

[motocaddy]

After reading all of this, I want to say everyone, on all sides of this discussion, should be commended for keeping it respectful and articulating their thoughts.

I still think S|W is the greatest online community going and am proud to be a part of it. However, I can see how some OGs might be concerned. S|W is still close to its core, but where is it headed? To those who came when it was about garage builds in Tennessee, it's hard to relate to driving gloves, importing Lambos from Japan for photoshoots and events at coastal country clubs in SoCal.

I honestly think it has everything to do with appearance. I don't think anyone here questions the character or motivation of Mike, Andrew or Ben; but at the same time, none of us really know what's going on behind the scenes. I was suprised to read that the guys are locked away working on the site so much and enduring such a meager lifestyle. That's definitely something most of us can identify with and makes me want to support S|W all that much more.

However, the appearance from the blog is that the guys have moved beyond garage dwellers and parking lot meets to something very elite. The guys are incredibly skilled and motivated, and in their efforts to make each event or blog entry bigger and better; it becomes harder for some of us to identify with. Personally, I think the solution is very simple: spend a little more time connecting with the community instead of always advancing it. Perhaps there should be a thread to correspond to every blog entry. That way the S|W team can share a little more about the motivation and experiences that go with each blog post and the community can interact, instead of just being impressed.

[LuckyBoyOne3]

I am glad that my opinion has sparked a healthy debate. But this is not a thread to slander this site, or any other site, any person or group of persons. It is a thread of opinion, specifically my opinion, but others have shown it is not too far off from their own.

One thing that makes absolutely no sense is to why Elvis and/or Stance Nation were even brought into this conversation. I have personally known Elvis for many years, he is a great guy, a family man, and a passionate car builder, like many of us. Yes, he has a competing blog and forum, but there is plenty of space on the internet for a little friendly competition, this site was not the first Stance/Fitment oriented page, and it's surely not the last in this growing niche.

Mike, I saw the reply you posted on a wall post yesterday before you removed it and replaced it with a comment less likely to be construed as negative, I thought about that comment all night. I couldn't agree more. I have been rather inactive on the site for sometime now, and with that have not participated in molding it into what it has become, and therefore have no grounds to complain about the outcome.

A fabrication that seems to have popped up is the discredit toward the amount of work that it takes to run everything. I know what it takes to put on a show, I know what it takes to maintain site, I know what it takes to participate in the community... I to am involved in all of these aspects of the automotive community, and on top of all that, we all have family and friends to maintain relationships with. As I said before, I appreciate having the outlet and resources the entire team worked hard to provide.

I feel that just like this entire thread, the focus has shifted. I could go on and on about how I don't feel leather driving gloves, Lambo's, HRE's, and other exotic overpriced things do not belong on a site that I thought is about builders, but it seems I will continue to get the same results... I was warned it would happen if I made my opinion public, and it was nothing short of reality.


Also, this is not a lets kiss ass and try to score some points or lets drive up our post count thread. If you don't have anything constructive to the conversation to say, then go hit up the random thread.

[LuckyBoyOne3]

After reading all of this... ...the appearance from the blog is that the guys have moved beyond garage dwellers and parking lot meets to something very elite... ...spend a little more time connecting with the community instead of always advancing it...

Couldn't have said it better.

Thank you Motocaddy.

[skrapez]

The problem here is it was obviously a completely different situation when this website was first started. When SW started off (i personally was not here yet) but it was a small group of friends that wanted a place all their own to share their style of modification without being thrashed by "elitists" from their make of car. As time went in this site and community has grown to something no one could have ever expected. I have a lot of respect for the people that started all of this and made it into what it is today and keep it running. I cannot even imagine the amount of work that goes into all of this. Like you said, between the site, running shows, making new friends and family life it is a lot to have on one plate. I do agree that the best times ive ever had is hanging out in parking lots just talking about cars for hours on end. As things grow they do change, but I feel the base of which this site and community started off as is still there.

[525iT_Feen]

I toyed with not responding to this just because it first seemed like forum drama but then I started hearing through the grape vine that people were talking shit about other individuals specifically. I’m going to start from the foundation of this post. I’m of the opinion that “friends” should pick up the phone and call if they have an issue with something that’s going on within what they consider “their” community. Starting a thread bashing the entire group of people who founded this site (with the exception of Nic whom I think a lot of you don’t even realize is the founder) and then saying “I’m not trying to be rude” or “I don’t mean this in a negative way” is just asking for attention and opening the door to an argument that you guys so clearly want to have everyone involved in.

Selling out, to me, means drastically changing the way you do things in order to gain more profit and fame in tern negatively affecting your reputation with supporters that you have had since day one. With that said the same people that have been talking shit and complaining recently (I’m just being honest since we all claim we are and I will get to specifics)about selling out to HRE, VIP Modular, getting more involved with exotic cars, getting “fancy” are the ones who were SCREAMING “Don’t do this if you can’t afford it” – “don’t buy fake splits” – “Fuck your clapped out shit box”, and literally running people off of this website when it firs started. It’s called raising the fucking bar. The community hasn’t gone anywhere it’s just changing like it has done time and time again. In a time where anyone can start a blog and start featuring cars left and right Ben, Andrew, and Mike have tried to separate themselves from the norm and do something different and now everyone wants to bitch and moan.

I don’t care about being an OG or this or that. I got dragged into this “scene” by an older crowd of people who aren’t even on forums anymore (or never were) with a few exceptions and have been into good fitment and the European car scene since I was 6 years old in Warsaw drooling over dumped e34s. Those people paved the way for sites like stanceworks. Good fitment is nothing new neither is modifying cars. I ended up on stanceworks because I liked what I saw. I had been buddies with Mike for a while through bimmerforums but him, his e28, and whatever new thing he had going on wasn’t what brought me here – the potential of an intriguing and different website was. After a few years of being here I can honestly say my expectations of what the SW gang was bringing to the table were exceeded. I find the articles interesting, I like the variety, I like the new products being brought to the table, and I like coming to a website that doesn’t look like all the other sites I frequent and I really enjoy seeing friends whom I met through SW.

When is it too far? I struggle to continue to support an organization that has, in my opinion, simply lost sight of its origins. This organization was founded on builders, crafters, creators... you might even say visioneers. A bit on the younger side most modify cars with with a combination of what we have, what we can salvage for cheap or free, and the tools we have at our disposal to work with. It sparked a sense of ingenuity, creativeness, and gusto the automotive industry had not seen in years. Scavenging through every source available from local classifieds to wrecking yards, buying totaled vehicles and parting them out after retrieving the single rare part they needed to perfect their vision. Searching high and low and often times selling everything they had of value in order to purchase, modify, and perfect the vintage uber rare wheels they had searched for over the past year.

Seriously Paul? What has changed so drastically? I think you’re letting your opinions be formed by other people who aren’t happy with stanceworks for business reasons. I know your friends with the guy who organized Tailored. I know that show was not up to par for what people expected and I know there has been bad blood and shit talking ever since. Don’t let that lead you to making threads that attack these guys for selling out because it’s straight up horse shit. If you don’t like some of what is being put on the main page scroll over it. If you feel the people that run this site are fading off and selling out then you are clearly not seeing what I’m seeing. I’m about 99% sure if the guys wanted to sell out they would have done so by allowing the hundreds of vendors that want to PAY to advertise here do so and have sold off their share of the site by now. On top of that they wouldn’t be going out of there way, making phone calls, and TRYING to work with Broadway Static AFTER creating a market for $1700 e36 coilovers on their own. Lets be fucking real here I’m so sick of the bickering and bitching. We’re all either friends are going to support one another with our projects, companies, personal BS or we’re not going to be friends and if that’s the case then move on. After reading all this shit it doesn’t seem like anyone wants to fix anything but a few people just want to talk shit.

Sean, we’ve been through our fair share of shit man but I feel like I can keep it on the up and up with you. You are representing a company now. This same company is being allowed to advertise here after Jaze and the SW group made an agreement to work together. You know the deal with that so I won’t say anymore. I know you have your reasons to feel the way you do but you of all people should pick up the phone call and call Mike. Bickering and jumping on the bandwagon with Paul and the rest of the PNW guys that have this problem really doesn’t make sense. You’ve been here from day one. You know how much work has been put in and it’s unfair to say they are selling out. Are the on the forums as much anymore? No. Are they road tripping every month and coming all over the place to party and hang out? No. Are they selling out? No.

Pavel, You gotta get over this whole “Mike doesn’t build his own shit” thing and move on. You’ve made your point time and time again and me and you have talked about this over and over again. I know you well enough to know that your gonna keep talking shit if your getting a rise out of everyone but comparing Elvis to this shit is a joke man. Be real – I know he’s your boy but the guy couldn’t even come up with a different name so lets not fuck around SN is unoriginal. He might be doing his thing and have a following but its just a blog. Just like Canibeat, Just like Fat Lace, just like all the others. If you guys don’t like SW promoting different things then what you can find on all those other sites then so be it – MOVE ON. Your family my man you know that so I’m sure your not taking it personal but other people are beginning to so I’m asking you to just cut the shit.

Lastly, lets look at getting back to our “roots”. Just like Paul said the root of all of this is piecing together your own definition of a cool car with what you have. Along with that comes a group of friends to do it with. Its up to you to keep it going. I have plenty of friends spread across this country that I can call on a favor or for advice whenever I need – that has not changed. The ATL crew was just all gathered up from all over in Russ’s garage for a weekend. Byron keeps the entire NE SW in touch and when we all catch up its like no time went by. I can go by Skrapez house pretty much on zero notice and the doors will be open to hanging out and shooting the shit. I don’t see how any of that has changed. At the end of the day I don’t give a shit about any of this. The only reason I took time to respond is because this shit is starting to get personal for people. If you’re not happy sever your ties and go do your own thing. If you REALLY want to fix something pick up the phone and make shit happen. You guys can nit pick all through what I just wrote. I won’t be coming back to respond. Take it with a grain of salt if you want to. Get up from behind your keyboard and find better shit to worry about then a fucking website that is supposed to be here for personal pleasure not crying and complaining.

[Jlyons617]

OP, good article. I think this happens with all groups, maybe it's just an evolution. I think it just has happened so fast it's like a culture shock. I wish I was around earlier to see the early progression of the Stanceworks trend. I think right now Mike is at a crossroads, how to stay true to the original ideals while progressing to keep things fresh. It's funny though the progression curve of Stanceworks seems to be bery close to the progression of electronic music.

[Jedidiah]

Personally, I think the solution is very simple: spend a little more time connecting with the community instead of always advancing it. Perhaps there should be a thread to correspond to every blog entry. That way the S|W team can share a little more about the motivation and experiences that go with each blog post and the community can interact, instead of just being impressed.

Ben,

Really appreciate your constructive criticism. It's well received and we will do our best to implement this suggestion. We definitely want you guys to have a full perspective to our motivations, intentions and the work that really goes on behind the scenes to make the things we do happen. Your suggestion is a great way to go about it.

I also really appreciate your understanding and giving us the benefit of the doubt through our efforts. Says a lot.

Ben

[Rally]

I feel that just like this entire thread, the focus has shifted. I could go on and on about how I don't feel leather driving gloves, Lambo's, HRE's, and other exotic overpriced things do not belong on a site that I thought is about builders, but it seems I will continue to get the same results... I was warned it would happen if I made my opinion public, and it was nothing short of reality.

In an effort to shift this discussion back to your initial topic at hand and discuss the things that seem to upset you so that we are able to give them careful consideration, can you elaborate on why offering driving gloves, posting ONE article about a lambo, and adding another wheel company to our site is enough to label us as sell-outs?

You mention that you don't feel that these things line up with the builder mentality of the past years. This is where I think we might be misunderstanding each other as I have a hard time seeing the disconnect.

The leather driving gloves- Builders work hard to pour their sweat and tears into their build. They take pride in their vehicles. One day after countless sleepless nights spent tinkering in the garage that car will be ready to hit the roads. When I developed the idea of offering driving gloves, it was with the intention of allowing that driver to add one additional pleasure to their driving experience in the car they love. They've worked so hard to build that car, why not toss on a pair of driving gloves and feel like the king of the road while they hit the twisty mountain roads or cruise down the strip? Where is the problem with the mentality of enjoying driving the car you built? Surely $150 isn't THAT expensive when people are spending $2k to refurbish and widen BBS RSs or dropping enough cash to re-paint their cars. Besides, it's one simple product. That seems like such a trivial thing to judge an entire company or community on.

The ONE Lambo post - I can barely keep track of how many articles have gone up in the past year and as we grow we're putting up even more content. What I don't understand is how one article is enough to bring you to this point of frustration. I understand that none of us could ever afford the lambo (it's not like it's OUR lambo)....but don't we all appreciate Lambos as car lovers despite our ability to afford them? I personally love the work and engineering behind Lamborghinis. Conservatively it's safe to say that we've made around 100 posts this year. ONE of those 100+ articles was about a Lambo and your words make it seem as if everything we've posted has been lambos and exotics. We're still posting low BMWs, VIP cars, and JDM cars. I struggle to see any massive change in our content outside of the ONE lambo that we posted. Could you explain why this one article has had such an overarching effect on your opinions?

HRE- With a premium product comes a premium price point. While many of us (myself included) can't afford HREs at this time in our lives, this doesn't mean that NONE of us can afford HREs. You have to realize that while the majority here on SW may not be in that budget bracket, we do have a number of members who read our blog and who watch our forums that CAN afford those wheels. Here at StanceWorks we cater to ALL of our followers. From the rich luxury car drivers to the college students. From the Kia owner to the Lambo enthusiast. That is what StanceWorks is about. We are about bringing together the ENTIRE car community through a shared passion for wheel fitment and low cars. While we do have HRE here selling premium priced wheels, we also have companies like Rotiform, VIP Modular, and Apt 9. From used 3 piece wheels at discount prices, to affordable cast wheels and premium priced forged modular wheels, our wheel sponsors cover the ENTIRE gamut of wheel pricing....but they share one important thing in common and that's quality. We bring companies on who offer quality parts for our users and we aim to include sponsors for all levels of owners and enthusiasts. I see no problem in adding a premium wheel company to our list of supporters. Could you elaborate on the issues that you see with the relationship?

I look forward to hearing your input on these three subjects that you have brought up. We sincerely care about your input, but we're trying to gather a solid understanding of your issues beyond simply knowing the topics that upset you. In order for us to understand where you're coming from, it's important to determine why you feel the way you do. From there we can considering your words and experiences in our future decisions.

Thanks,
Andrew