What does the stance crowd think about... [Archive]

Dr.AK

06-08-2009, 05:54 PM

... bags?

Posting this here since the forum description says "anything about suspension".:stickoutt

Anyways, wondering what your opinions on bags are?

Think they're a cheater solution for pussies? Or think they are the next best thing since the invention of the wheel?

Personally, I'm so-so about them. If used right, I think they are uber awesome, but if used wrong they are utter fail.

Used right: Driving low as f*ck, just raising the car up for stuff you can't get over otherwise without heavy scraping or stuff and for getting inside steep parking garages and so on. WIN!

Used wrong: Parking low, driving stock height. FAIL!

What's your opinion on this?

I'm thinking about going bags on my car next year. :shifty

B Rod

06-08-2009, 05:57 PM

I'm not that big of a fan, but if thats what you're looking for, go for it! They could make things convenient as hell being able to constantly adjust the ride height.

driggers.a

06-08-2009, 06:25 PM

southpaw

06-08-2009, 06:25 PM

Some cars can pull it off, some cant. It depends on what the owner wants to do.

IMO, bags are awesome, but people with coils that are slammed get way more rep.

M.Burroughs

06-08-2009, 06:41 PM

What has been said pretty much sums it up.

Dr.AK

06-08-2009, 06:47 PM

As long as you drive it slammed.

I still don't see the point though...If you're gonna drive it slammed and park it slammed then why not just rock coils. Not only are coils usually cheaper, but theres a lot less equipment to deal with.

Well, the goal is to drive it slammed, park it (almost) laying frame and just raise it up for stuff I wouldn't be able to drive over if it were super slammed on coils.

#1: In Germany, we have laws about the minimum height of the light output edge in the car's headlights and tails and so on - the stance i wish for would go well below the minimum for these -> cops pull you over, you're f*cked, should they check this. With airride they can't do isht, as long as you follow a few basic rules.

#2; Getting inside steep parking garages and stuff without risking damage due to always scraping and so on, I don't really have a problem with scraping, but not having to worry about hitting anything important when driving up a parking garage or something would be nice.

I deeply respect people who drive uberslammed on coils, but I think bags are the better choice for someone like me (i.e. wanting to go way lower than the laws allow, having to park in very steep parking garages sometimes due to work and so on).

Stephen

06-08-2009, 06:53 PM

I'd say do it in your situation.

driggers.a

06-08-2009, 07:10 PM

There are 3 ways to see if a car is legally too low in CA, I fail everyone...Nobody gives a shit if my BMW is too low though, thats mainly a problem for the JDM guys.

I'm just a big no bag person...So I guess I'm not the one to ask, haha.

EDIT: Only acceptable application of bags for me is on a VIP car.

Stephen

06-08-2009, 07:24 PM

What are the CA rules even? I've heard if the lip is lower than the bottom of the wheel.. but thats a retarted measurement because you just get bigger wheels

driggers.a

06-08-2009, 07:36 PM

1. 22" from middle of headlight to ground.
2. Lowest point of car must not be lower than the bottom side of your rim.
3. Turn signal height of 15" or higher.

Refer to CVC-24008.

Dutchy

06-08-2009, 08:21 PM

I'm for em. If I had a car I wanted to keep really clean I would rock bags, keep down wear on tires, suspension components and your underbody. I'd probably get bored and slam her down on the highway everyday to work, and that would defeat the purpose.

But since my car is a rusty canadian piece of shit, I don't mind the idea of scraping the hell out my underbody and the goods attached to it. Besides I keep a spare oil pan handy :D

LavaSurfer

06-08-2009, 08:22 PM

I think bags can be pulled off on certain cars. Any big car can pull it off since you might actually want to carry a couple people in the back without eating the interstate the whole way there. Here's my short list.

Teh Sechs List:

Trucks
Anything you can call a "big body" (96 or older impala, 7 series, S class benz, etc.)

Fail List:
Anything kind of "sport compact" car
All the POS American late model crap I see getting bagged

Of course when it comes from the factory with bags, that's all the better. It makes me want an Audi A8 even moar......

SeanDub

06-08-2009, 08:22 PM

The 22" rule no longer applies from what I understand. I got hit for being too low, cop let me off with a warning.

driggers.a

06-08-2009, 08:32 PM

I think bags can be pulled off on certain cars. Any big car can pull it off since you might actually want to carry a couple people in the back without eating the interstate the whole way there.

I can carry 5 people with luggage and a full tank of gas no problem.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3318/3339463915_db87f3ec9d_o.jpg

The 22" rule no longer applies from what I understand. I got hit for being too low, cop let me off with a warning.

Well its still in the 2010 CVC database...That means you can technically be written up for it.

Exami

06-09-2009, 08:08 AM

About bags.. i would like to have.. but runing KW Variante3 now i bet that kw has better ridequality.. bags allowed by me .. tho more rep with coil lowerings

i like real low cars and mine has ~8cm from bottom of car.. thats about 3.2"?
that is lowest legal as finnish roads have speedbums that is 8cm high.. and you need to have ability to go over those.. BUT ppl just don't give a f**k
just right place to register your car they just measure cap between wheelcenter & fender but that up to your registration and thats it..

biggest problem there is that you need to find place where to register your ride... as many they have brakedynos and all that shit and you need 8cm clearance on those :shifty

Dag Yo

06-13-2009, 06:02 AM

Bags are for semi's.

blue bags

06-13-2009, 11:01 AM

It really depends on the purpose in my opinion, like stated above, i drove both of my MK4 gtis rocked on coils for years, the car i have now is a daily, and i love having air. I drive lower than i ever possibly could on coils, and park lower. But in the same sense there are places i can go now that i never could, for instance the parking garage in providence, my car literally got stuck on the metal rail connecting the concrete slabs together every time i went, now that i have air i dont have to worry about that. here is a before and after.
This was my daily height, year round on coils.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/2328.jpg
and now for my purpose, the air is great, i like being low as much as the next guy, but now i can be lower than i ever could on coils, and drivable in almost any situation
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/3589964991_13225ea454_b.jpg
under car shots
on Coils:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/5-2.jpg
on air:
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/45.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/2919_1087721073310_1234920297_30341.jpg

grippymonkey

06-13-2009, 11:47 AM

I would personally never rock bags... I think coils are just too cool when you are low. I do think bags are pretty cool. Alot of VIP and Euro cars (oh and old school american) pull it off well. I don't like it when people ride high everywhere only to slam it in a parking lot. I like it when the 2nd setting for driving around is still pretty low, and then from there you slam the crap out of it.

The bags that I might rock are the ones that you use on your standard coilover. You have a small bag at the top portion of the coil spring. So you can retain the coilover ride and handling, but still go another 2-3inches lower when you park.

http://www.kts-web.com/wagon_style/car/odyssey/img/tanabe_sustec_pro_aircobra.jpg

TillRodsFly

06-14-2009, 01:04 AM

I personally would NEVER rock bags on ANY car that was originally thought of as a sports car. IMO, bags should be reserved lowrider mini/full size truck crowd just like old skool lowriders deserve an old skool set-up like hydros. I just feel coilovers are the proper way to go on a "sports" type car, especially if any kind of performance is desired.

Here is a pic of my friends van with bags. DON'T ****! He is a quadrapalegic so he HAS to have a van to get around and loves customizing. I mean, what else can you really do with a full size van? I think bags fit something like this.

The shows he attends mainly give you points for things that are "not factory", so that pretty much explains why it is so wild. Needless to say, he pretty much wins every show he enters. He now has a new style Avalanche front end and the hood opens similar to an e30 since this pic. There is even real $100 bills clearcoated in the hood.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s163/TillRodsFly/1.jpg

Stan Marsh

06-25-2009, 04:24 PM

I personally love bags, thats just me though. I have been debating between doing anything to my GTI or just leaving it stock and driving it. But if I do it will be on bags, and it will be driven less than 1" off the ground. I only want bags for road obstacles. I went through 3 pans on my old MK3 that was about 3/4" off the ground at the pan and I dont want to deal with that shit again.

psiglx

06-25-2009, 07:39 PM

love this topic because i have had both

2 years ago i would never in a million years buy bags. i looked at it as being the same as a the people that go to a show and crank their coilovers down in the show field...cheaters

i rode in my friends mk3 gti in austria at worthersee and found out how the ride was, how well it handled, and how great it was for speed bumps and steep drives.

i loved the static drop on my mk3's and love the reaction of my oilpan sparking in the middle of the night from a dip in the rode but now i can say i love the bags and dont think i would build a car without them again. that being said even my wifes opinion is towards the bags. much better ride quality and shes already planned for them on our tdi sportwagen. her mini on the other hand will be a static drop strictly because she wants to make it a track car and doesnt need it low (so she says)...

nyy42

06-26-2009, 12:20 AM

bags are for fa...

doug118

06-26-2009, 02:58 AM

for instance the parking garage in providence, my car literally got stuck on the metal rail connecting the concrete slabs together every time i went

providence place? or another garage? that mall has the very worst entrances and exits for lowered cars. even my girls stock beetle scraps if we try to leave at over 10mph

OSSHWA

06-26-2009, 10:18 PM

It really depends on the car for me. My next build is gonna be an RX-8, which I plan on slamming via JIC-Magic FLT-FAS coilovers. They provide a 2.5" drop to an already low car, plus I plan on running very aggressive camber specs and likely the wildest stretch any RX-8 has ever seen.....not to mention the Chargespeed Bottom Line cf lip kit all around.....so the combination of everything will quite literally sit the car on the ground. But in some cases, like a daily driver (which the RX-8 will NOT be by any means) or a VIP style car when you may wanna actually retain some comfort and practicality.....then bags would be the way to go.

blue bags

06-26-2009, 10:27 PM

providence place? or another garage? that mall has the very worst entrances and exits for lowered cars. even my girls stock beetle scraps if we try to leave at over 10mph

yea, i hit my bumper everywhere, i dont care about that, but the metal rails scraped down my whole damn frame

doug118

06-26-2009, 11:21 PM

yeah I'm from Providence and these roads blow

EThirtySicks

07-02-2009, 05:56 PM

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/saidandone/3589964991_13225ea454_b.jpg

Bro this is seriously amazing. Well done.

I think bags are sorta cheating, that's why guys who run coils get more respect. It takes more work to figure out a stance by working offsets, tire sizes, and coilover heights than it does by laying frame with bags.

Stan Marsh

07-03-2009, 12:08 AM

Bro this is seriously amazing. Well done.

I think bags are sorta cheating, that's why guys who run coils get more respect. It takes more work to figure out a stance by working offsets, tire sizes, and coilover heights than it does by laying frame with bags.

how does it differ with bags? please do tell. Its the same game to get good stance with bags. I **** people who just get bags to go low low low and lay frame with no stance. it looks like shit.

SeanDub

07-03-2009, 12:10 AM

Its different with bags because they dont drive at their stationary height like guys on coils do.

blue bags

07-03-2009, 01:51 AM

i totally agree, there are plenty of people with bags that have terrible offsets and tire sizes and still have crap hover-craft stance. and it depends on the operator of the bags, i can drive lower than i ever could on modified maxed out coils, and park lower, but it really depends on the car, on mk5 gtis its much easier to get lower on coils because the body is lower in relation to the frame/pan

Stan Marsh

07-03-2009, 11:13 AM

Its different with bags because they dont drive at their stationary height like guys on coils do.

Don't worry guys once I man up and buy my bags, I'll blow everyones mind. And I only plan on raising my car up enough for the wheels to roll (aka less than .25") I know several guys on bags who drive at almost stock ride height and it bugs the hell out of me. My reasoning and only reasoning for going with bags is to save my oil pan when I am in areas when I absolutely need to have ground clearance.

SeanDub

07-03-2009, 11:17 AM

Stan Marsh

07-03-2009, 11:23 AM

the setup I am running with isn't as convenient as most people's are, its not going to be super quick for me to just bump everything up. Plus as weird as this sounds, I enjoy scraping. When I had my old MK3 GTI I was less than a half inch off the ground at the oil pan and I enjoyed scraping because it made me feel something that I guess I cant find words to explain. But I didn't enjoy going down a road that was like pot hole city and ripping a 4" hole into my oil pan even though I was only doing about 10 mph.

JSanders

07-08-2009, 12:54 PM

I'm not knockin bags, I'm just saying its less respectable in the sense that you don't HAVE TO drive that height. Obviously no one knows what you do when you're rollin daily, but I find it hard to believe that you're gonna drag your car over every Driveway, bump, or imperfection you come across if you're on bags. Us on coils have no choice.

Well put. I don't like bags just because they make the ride so soft, I enjoy my race car like stiff suspension and taking turns like my car is on rails.

As southpaw said, "If I run over a squirrel in the road, I FEEL its bones cracking."

schroedin

07-08-2009, 12:59 PM

"If I run over a squirrel in the road, I FEEL its bones cracking."

:rofl

NegativeCamber

07-13-2009, 03:14 PM

Well put. I don't like bags just because they make the ride so soft, I enjoy my race car like stiff suspension and taking turns like my car is on rails.

true to an extent. you can always use air cylinders as an alternative. they take much much more pressure to get the car off the ground and since they dont expand and contract like a bag does, those two factors make the ride much more firm. match that with 8 valves for independent corners, and its pretty stiff. well, depends on how stiff is stiff for you. :D

cheez80

08-09-2009, 05:41 PM

Its different with bags because they dont drive at their stationary height like guys on coils do.

have you guys ever looked into a roberuta-type setup? pricey, but they're like little canisters that sit between the spring and the top perch on your coilovers. you fill them up with a little bit of air (like 40psi) and they'll go up to momentarily clear speed bumps or driveways, but when you deflate them, they're solid. all of the top secret cars out of japan (even their 1400hp drag supra, i think) runs those. so you get the benefit of raising your car at certain times, without the poser-ish connotation of running bags super high while driving.

EThirtySicks

08-12-2009, 08:22 PM

I'm not knockin bags, I'm just saying its less respectable in the sense that you don't HAVE TO drive that height. Obviously no one knows what you do when you're rollin daily, but I find it hard to believe that you're gonna drag your car over every Driveway, bump, or imperfection you come across if you're on bags. Us on coils have no choice.

Yeah. That's what I was gonna say but couldn't figure out how to say it.

I'm not gonna say I don't respect dudes who go crazy low on bags but if you don't drive that low, what's the point?

M.Burroughs

08-12-2009, 08:27 PM

People that don't know what they're talking about ITT. :shifty

SeanDub

08-12-2009, 08:27 PM

have you guys ever looked into a roberuta-type setup? pricey, but they're like little canisters that sit between the spring and the top perch on your coilovers. you fill them up with a little bit of air (like 40psi) and they'll go up to momentarily clear speed bumps or driveways, but when you deflate them, they're solid. all of the top secret cars out of japan (even their 1400hp drag supra, i think) runs those. so you get the benefit of raising your car at certain times, without the poser-ish connotation of running bags super high while driving.

Thats exactly what I'm talkin about. Guys on coils get more credit cuz we dont lift over bumps and drivceways.

BreakMyWallet

08-12-2009, 09:44 PM

bags ftw. convenience ftw

SeanDub

08-12-2009, 09:44 PM

^^ Cant handle static slam ftl

BreakMyWallet

08-12-2009, 10:11 PM

haha. i handled static for a couple years.

its not that i dont love rollin around slammed on coils, but it becomes a problem when i break my $800 lip a few times.

http://i30.tinypic.com/dmcupl.jpg
http://i27.tinypic.com/eurqtw.jpg

id rather roll around knowing that i wont have to worry about breaking shit and still having the slammed look. its cheating, but its not a competition. we arent getting graded. for me, slammed is slammed. its just a look. when i made it a lifestyle i spended more money than i needed to.

trust me, i LOVE watching peoples faces as i scrape up inclines, its just not worth it to me anymore. for some people, its worth it.

SeanDub

08-12-2009, 10:17 PM

http://www.stanceworks.com/Pictures/cards2.jpg

"Low is a lifestyle" :)

BreakMyWallet

08-12-2009, 10:26 PM

:rofl

southpaw

08-13-2009, 12:56 PM

As southpaw said, "If I run over a squirrel in the road, I FEEL its bones cracking."

True. ;)

Climb_On

08-13-2009, 05:03 PM

proper stance has nothing to do with wether your on bags or coils, proper stance for both applications takes research, trial and error to get the look you want. I give respect where its due.

Don't get me wrong i love seeing a car laying frame as much as the next guy but i think it takes quite the enthusiast to be willing to learn to live with a slammed car day in and day out.

Bags just makes everything too easy, but not in a good way.
.
.
.
.
.
... i do wish sometimes i was on bags just so i can park in my own steep garage :(

rubadub

08-13-2009, 10:46 PM

Some cars can pull it off, some cant. It depends on what the owner wants to do.

IMO, bags are awesome, but people with coils that are slammed get way more rep.

You obviously don't know about the Mk4 VW scene. If your shit doesn't have fenders sitting on the side wall you're not stanced most of the time.

I'll stick with my coils. I'll just get stiffer springs, set for stiffer settings, and have fun washing tire off my fender.

Schieldrop

08-14-2009, 05:21 PM

I've always felt bags are a bit "cheaterish" but can understand why people do it.
Even tho I personally wouldn't do bags unless it's was a big 7-series or something VIPish.
I've always gone with coils on most of my cars. But that's due to the fact that up until this spring I've always had atleast one car that got tracked in anger. And then bags simply won't do.
On the M3 E30 Sport Evo I just sold I had conventional dampers and springs. Tho these were specially fabricated for a hillclimb-racer, so they were looooow.
The problem I have with bags comes down to the handling. And in this respect bags really really suck ass. You can have just as much fun driving a less powerful car as long as the ride is awesome.
So to sum it all up, coils (or conventional or springs and dampers) gives awesome stance and awesome ride. Bags look good if set up right, but handling is generally ruined.

BreakMyWallet

08-14-2009, 08:13 PM

you can have a great handling bag setup if youre willing to pay. there are bag setups that do get tracked. though, theyll never be as good as coils but5 there are sets that can keep up for the most part

Dutchy

08-15-2009, 12:58 PM

Bags look good if set up right, but handling is generally ruined.

That statement is very very wrong. Bags can handle much better then stock suspension, and even spring/shock setups if they are done right.

Obviously if you run bags without shocks it will handle like crap. Same goes for running lowering springs/coils on stock shocks or any shock not short enough, firm enough for the spring rate.

Schieldrop

08-15-2009, 01:03 PM

That statement is very very wrong. Bags can handle much better then stock suspension, and even spring/shock setups if they are done right.

Obviously if you run bags without shocks it will handle like crap. Same goes for running lowering springs/coils on stock shocks or any shock not short enough, firm enough for the spring rate.

You say that bags CAN handle better than stock, and I say that bags are GENERALLY worse than coils. I was not comparing stock to bags or coils. Just coils vs bags. Stock I don't care for in any way.

Dutchy

08-15-2009, 01:09 PM

Bag's can compete with coils.

If you were to setup a car to have a ride height which is ideal for the suspension geometry at say 40-50psi or even higher, depending on the bag etc. You would have a very very stiff suspension that is at the optimum height for the suspension to work as it was designed to.

Most slammed cars have tie rod's and control arms pointing to the sky, along with driveshafts doing the same to. That scenario is far from ideal for handling. This is where bags come into play, lets you slam the car whenever your not concerned about handling, and bump up the bag pressure when you want firm suspension that sits at the optimum height for the design of the suspension.

Schieldrop

08-15-2009, 01:13 PM

I can see that we will never agree on this, and since I was refering to handling it goes without saying that having the best possible stance was not the point of my statement.
If stance is the only concern than they both work fine, but for the tracking I've done, and did refer to, coils win everytime.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my original post tho...

Rally

08-15-2009, 03:42 PM

You say that bags CAN handle better than stock, and I say that bags are GENERALLY worse than coils. I was not comparing stock to bags or coils. Just coils vs bags. Stock I don't care for in any way.

The bagged mustang by ART won against all the coilover'd cars at the track shootout :stickoutt

Yah, of course coilovers can perform better out on the track...but that's if they're being used correctly. A car slammed down with coilovers spun all the way down to get that 'stance' that everyone wants isn't going to handle well either.

I've got bags and my car still handles amazingly well and is still a blast to drive. No driving fun lost here:D To say that "handling is ruined" is just an exaggeration. They may not be the best of the best out on the track in serious competition, but they still handle well enough to have fun out on the twisty roads.

Schieldrop

08-15-2009, 05:15 PM

This is offcourse down to preference, and mine is to avoid bags.
This is a bit like the argument of which is best, awd or rwd.
It's all down to what you as an individual like. But I will say this, almost ALL racecars made around the world does have conventinal spring and damper assembly or coils, and that's that as far as I'm concerned.

As for the real purpose of this thread, the stance issue, I do think bags are perhaps the more sensible way to go. But like so many others have said before me, coils are more hardcore, just 'cos you have to deal with it's downsides all the time :D

Tuck&Poke

08-15-2009, 05:46 PM

BreakMyWallet

08-16-2009, 02:38 AM

cheez80

08-17-2009, 07:55 PM

the bag is just replacing the function of the spring, not exactly a complicated peice. So long as the pressure in the bag is sufficient to provide enough stiffness, and the ride height is ideal to reduce roll, then there is no reason for there to be any difference in performance between a sprung coilover suspension and a bag setup, except for perhaps the added weight of a tank and compressors, which is what? 70lbs tops?

i've read elsewhere that a method to ensure track-ready performance out of bags is all in the setup.

this really applies to cars that can run a bag over coilover setup, using the universal air setup, which slips over your coilover in place of the coilover springs.

you'll have to figure out what spring rate the coilover shocks are valved for (that should be pretty easy). then you can spring dyno the airbags, figure out what the equivalent spring rate is, then toss them on the car. set ride height based on the spring rate/psi ratio you figured out. bam, at the proper ride height, you'll get a ride like coilovers.

Rally

08-17-2009, 08:24 PM

you'll have to figure out what spring rate the coilover shocks are valved for (that should be pretty easy). then you can spring dyno the airbags, figure out what the equivalent spring rate is, then toss them on the car. set ride height based on the spring rate/psi ratio you figured out. bam, at the proper ride height, you'll get a ride like coilovers.

You don't even need to spring dyno the bags. Universal Air will supply you with the graph curve of the PSI->Spring Rate equivalence if you ask them for it. At that point you just need to mount them at the proper height for the desired pressure/height, and you're good to go. This is assuming you're using a quality set of coilovers with the bags rather than some cheap ebay coils.

The whole "bags handle like crap" thing was true years ago when people were running air cylinders and the technology hadn't been perfected, but the airbag industry has made leaps and bounds since. It's entirely possible to properly set up a great handling airride.